Nirvana fans were handed a breathtaking treasure chest recently when Sub Pop co-founder Bruce Pavitt published a book of rare personal photographs from the band’s mini-trek through Europe in the latter part of 1989. Experiencing Nirvana: Grunge In Europe, 1989, shows the band pre-Nevermind, pre-fame and looking quite ordinary, Apart from some thrilling professional shots by photographer Steve Double towards the end of the book, these are classic everyday snapshots of a band still fermenting in the musical birth canal. These photos bring Kurt Cobain and Krist Novoselic, as well as Mudhoney and TAD, back down to our level: young scrawny guys, walking around Zurich and Rome and Paris in sometimes blurry/sometimes cheesy touristy photos, as well as in spastic, sweaty performance images from inside small European clubs. Tucked away in boxes during Pavitt’s grief over Cobain’s death; a gradual re-acquaintance unfolded as time moved further from that sad spring day in 1994.
Pavitt eventually decided he no longer wanted to keep these memories private and began the task of molding them into place as a scrapbook for everyone to enjoy. He wanted to show Nirvana, Mudhoney, TAD and himself before superstardom blew Seattle right off the music scene map. You see Kurt at a payphone calling his girlfriend; the band, featuring drummer Chad Channing, with Pavitt and Sub Pop’s other co-founder Jonathan Poneman, having dinner in Italy; and Mudhoney’s Mark Arm smiling and wearing Mardi Gras beads. No one is rock star posing, no one is hogging the camera lens: just guys hanging out.
A few weeks ago, I talked to Pavitt as he was relaxing at his home near Seattle, a place he had left behind as his disenchantment with the music business coiled around him like a smothering turtleneck. We talked about Kurt and we talked about Seattle. He told me a few special stories and laughed about the whole grunge scene “style.” And he told me why he needed to bring these photos and these stories out into the light.
Are you glad you did this book?
I am indeed. It was time to come back and share some stories. That period was an awesome time. The 80’s indie culture, pre-Nevermind, is an interesting time. There were a lot of revolutionary characters back then. Nobody was doing it for the money. Everybody was just doing it to just create art and have good times. Post-Nevermind, things really shifted. I thought it would be interesting to tell a Nirvana story before they got really famous. And I just happened to have some amazing photos from that period so I pieced it together and I think it’s kind of a unique look and I’m proud of it.
You said that you had these photos packed away. How often over the years would you pull them out?
Well, you know, it took me a while to really revisit that period. Frankly, I was finding it difficult to revisit that period because of Kurt’s suicide, because of his passing. So there was kind of a very long period of putting that aside. But time heals, as they say, and one photo in particular, Kurt in front of the cross, which is on the cover of the book, really stood out in my memory and I thought, God, this shot is so iconic and so powerful, how can I share this with people and get it out there? And that was kind of the very seed of the project. Then as I flipped through the images I realized that everything unfolded in a story. It took place over eight days but there was drama and momentum in this story and the whole thing pieced together like the storyboard for a film. The book kind of wrote itself.
What I noticed about the book is that it’s like a normal person’s scrapbook: you’ve got blurry pictures, you’ve got discolored pictures, you’ve got cheesy tourist pictures.
Yeah, the images are very accessible. One observation I made about the whole kind of Seattle scene at the time is that it was very inclusive. There was nothing exclusive about it. I think that that part of the culture is really captured in the book. When we went to England, people were a little more fashion-oriented there and so forth. I think one of the reasons that people warmed up to that Seattle scene is that it was very welcoming.
I like how on page 34 you called everybody’s style in Seattle “artful thrifting.” I thought that was a great way to put it.
I thought so too. An interesting observation of a lot of these characters is that most of them were really geeks, you know. They were record nerds and just because they rocked hard, didn’t mean they weren’t super-geeky about collecting records or studying the intricacies of like punk and indie culture and it was infused with, I think, the spirit of some artful personalities. TAD, for example, was a big fan of Gang Of Four. Kurt was a fan of the Vaselines. Mark Arm was a big fan of Sonic Youth.
Chad Channing is not mentioned very much in this book. Why is that?
He’s in a few photos. He just didn’t manage to get in a lot of the images, especially the live shots. Unless you’re shooting from a special angle, it’s kind of hard to get all three members in the photos and he really didn’t make a lot of the images. And as a rather quiet personality, there weren’t a lot of anecdotes that kind of jumped out. But there are a few photos of Chad in there.
You didn’t grow up in Seattle. So tell us a little about your background and how you found your way to the Pacific Northwest.
I grew up an hour south from Chicago and when I was nine years old, I raised enough money to buy my first record player. I started spending all of my money on records from that moment on. That was in 1969, so my earliest records were like Creedence, The Beatles, Jackson 5, that kind of thing. By the time 1977 came around, I was spending time with friends in Chicago and really started getting into a lot of punk stuff, going to clubs. In 1978, a record store called Wax Trax opened up on Lincoln Avenue, which is like one of the great all-time indie punk record stores. That’s where I would spend many an afternoon pouring through every record, every fanzine, and that’s where I got a lot of schooling in early punk/new wave. Of course, I was seeing a lot of those bands at the time. I saw Talking Heads and Pere Ubu and B-52s and Devo and all sorts of bands like that; Clash and so forth.
In 1979, real briefly, I moved out to Olympia to attend the Evergreen State College, which was an alternative school, and at KAOS FM, I started this Subterranean Pop Radio Show, which was an exclusively indie radio show, which was kind of unusual at the time. I was playing a lot of punk stuff but everything was on small labels. And from that show, I put out a fanzine – there’s a long story behind it – but from that show I eventually wound up starting a record label in Seattle, putting out the first record in 1986.
What made you think that you could start a record company?
Yeah, it’s pretty crazy. You can’t really go to school to learn how to start a record company, I’ll tell you. But everything, it sort of flowed naturally. From the radio show came a fanzine, from the fanzine came cassette compilations of demos, and from cassettes it was just one more step towards releasing music. So I started putting out records, one thing led to another, and when I met Jonathan Poneman in 1987, we decided to join forces and open an office full-time in April 1988. I talk a little bit about that in the book but I was always the record obsessive and by the late 1980’s, I was convinced that the Seattle music scene was going to blow up. I was writing about that in my Rocket column and I was really convinced that the bands in Seattle were great. So I spent all my energy trying to convince other people the same thing.
What do you think Sub Pop had that none of the other record companies had at that time?
Primarily, we had front row seats to one of the greatest rock scenes ever, which was the late-80’s Seattle Grunge scene. We had relationships with most of the artists in town as well as the photographer Charles Peterson and that’s really what we had at the time. In addition, I had been networking with stores and zines and stations all throughout the 80’s, so by the time we opened the doors, I was pretty connected nationally and it’s one of the reasons why I think the label started to take off, because we had done a lot of networking.
Do you think it helped that you and Jonathan were one of them?
Yeah, we’re all from the same community and our interests were just to keep the doors open and keep putting out records because we were very excited about the music. Everybody was involved in the scene and was super cooperative and helpful. You’ll see in the book the bass player from the TAD band wearing a Nirvana t-shirt and Mark from Mudhoney wearing a Fluid t-shirt, some friends of ours from Denver. So the scene was very, very supportive, and certainly Jon and I were music geeks and music fans and we just got the biggest thrill out of supporting these bands and putting out the records. And that’s really what it was all about.
Sub Pop also had the Single Of The Month Club, which was really cool. You’d get different music from different bands.
Right and that’s one of the things we started to do was release limited edition singles, oftentimes on colored vinyl, and we knew that if we pressed a thousand copies of a single we could generate a lot of excitement around that, sell them out, take the money and roll it over into another single. People were getting a little frustrated with how difficult it was to obtain the singles so we suggested, well, maybe if you sent us cash in advance, we’ll guarantee you’ll get the record. It was a very novel approach. I don’t believe any other label at the time was receiving cash prior to a record’s release like that. It was kind of an unusual set up. In addition with the Singles Club, it was an opportunity for us to network with other bands from around the country, which made the job a little more fun.
If you had to pick one song that you think defined Sub Pop during that era, which one would you pick?
I think it would have to be the first Mudhoney single “Touch Me I’m Sick.” That would definitely have to be it. First of all, it was a great tune, the first single that we released that really generated a lot of interest and it was by a band that was our most popular band at the time, that really helped break Seattle in Europe, I’d say. Plus it was their first quasi-hit.
Were there any bands in particular that you guys wanted that you didn’t get to sign?
Sure, we were trying to get a single out by the Melvins at one time and that kind of fell through. So not everybody we wanted to work with came through.
What is your first memory of Nirvana?
They had recorded a demo with Jack Endino down at Reciprocal Recording. He handed off the demo to my business partner Jonathan Poneman, who got really excited, and then we invited them up to perform an audition for us at the Central Tavern. The audition was, I felt, a little on the weak side. The band was just still forming and even though the performance was a little weak and the material wasn’t very strong, we were both convinced that Kurt Cobain had just an amazing voice. So we decided to release a single, “Love Buzz,” and after we received a really positive response on that we went ahead and got their album Bleach recorded.
Are you excited about them going into the Hall Of Fame?
Yeah, I’m very excited about their induction into the Hall Of Fame. Why not, you know (laughs). It’s an honor. I talked to Dave Grohl a couple of weeks ago and he was quite stoked.
Dave always seems to be excited about everything.
That is true. I don’t think he’s ever been un-stoked about anything (laughs)
What are your thoughts on bands that start their own label, which has become kind of a trend to just do it themselves, verses going to indie labels like Sub Pop?
You know, that’s a good question. Back in the late-70’s, when I first started, or rather the late-70’s/early-80’s when I first started playing records on the air and reviewing records, most indie records were simply released by the artists. There were very few labels that were organized at the time. So that was really the route. A band would press five hundred to a thousand copies of a record. Now it’s more of the norm. There are advantages to both. I do think that with Bandcamp in particular these days, it’s easier and easier for bands to release their own material. Certainly bands make a hundred percent of the profits they release themselves but oftentimes customers will trust a label and be more willing to purchase something on that label. I think a smarter way to do business is to work with an indie label and then once you kind of establish yourself, then to do things independently might make a little more sense. There’s so much competition out there it’s hard to get people’s attention.
And it’s such a different world in the music business now.
Yes, very, very different
Do you like how things have changed?
Well, it’s harder to get people to buy music. Folks are still buying vinyl but it’s still a lot smaller percentage than when I was actively involved way back in the day. I think it’s just increasingly hard for bands to sell music, or labels to sell music. There are other creative options like licensing to film and TV and so forth but the nature of the industry has changed considerably and it gets a little more challenging every year, I’d say.
How vital was producer Jack Endino to the Sub Pop sound?
Back when Sub Pop started, I believe one of the reasons we got some early attention is that our records had a similar look with photographer Charles Peterson and a similar sound with producer Jack Endino. I thought Jack did an amazing job of capturing the rawness of the bands. I was just listening to Superfuzz Bigmuff by Mudhoney the other day and it sounded absolutely incredible. I have a lot of respect for Jack. I think he did a great job and I think he was instrumental in helping to launch Sub Pop.
Do you think this music would have exploded like it did if it hadn’t been for you and Sub Pop Records?
No I don’t, I don’t think it would have. Because what people fail to remember is that, a lot of people couldn’t even find Seattle on the map. Talent scouts certainly were not going to Seattle. Bands pretty much had to move to LA to get a deal. My friend Duff McKagan moved to LA, joined Guns N Roses, and is a perfect example. So because Seattle was so ignored, the upside to that is a lot of these groups got to work creatively outside of public scrutiny. We got to kind of cultivate our own scene but as a lot of musicians know, you can create a really good music but convincing people that they should check it out is oftentimes a difficult job. And I think Sub Pop really did a great job at letting the world know that this music was really special. And sending these groups to Europe and having them perform in front of the British press was a very effective strategy, almost too effective, because almost as soon as the bands came home there was certainly a bidding war over Nirvana not too long after that.
Back in the day, I remember hearing a lot of great things about TAD. Why didn’t they hit big?
That’s a good question. I think one thing that kind of hurt their career is that when their album 8-Way Santa was released, there was some controversy over the cover and it had to get pulled. So the band lost momentum with that classic release. But there’s no justice in the music business, you know. Oftentimes, it’s very hard to know who is going to be the big seller. The TAD band should have sold at least hundreds of thousands of records and I really encourage people to go back and review some of their catalog.
Another thing is a lot of these groups signed with major labels. TAD signed to Giant, I believe, but I don’t think the label really knew what to do with them. When you get signed to a major label, oftentimes things will move very slowly. Indies tend to work a lot quicker. I thought that Sub Pop did a much better job of generating interest in the band. But post-Nevermind, everybody wanted to sign with the majors because they thought they’d make a lot of money.
Did you know Andrew Wood?
I did know Andrew Wood, yes
Do you have a special memory that you could share with us about him?
Let me see, yeah, ok (laughs). I’ve got one. You know, most people are familiar with Andrew through the band Mother Love Bone but I used to see his earlier band, Malfunkshun, quite a bit. I used to refer to him as kind of the Liberace of rock & roll. He was extremely glamorous, took glam to another level, and I remember seeing him at the Vogue, there’s about twelve people in the audience, and he steps out and does the whole “Hello Seattle” thing. He incorporated a lot of really grandiose arena rock gestures in his show that were really outrageous. So he was actually really funny in that he was living this arena rock fantasy but playing to, almost ironically, mostly really small intimate crowds in Seattle. He was a super sweet guy but he was also funny and he took glamor to a whole other level. And he dreamed big, that’s for sure.
You grew disenchanted with the music world and you left. What bothered you so much about it?
A couple of things. First of all, you have to understand I had a kid and once you have children and going out to rock clubs all the time, yeah, the allure isn’t quite as strong. I felt that after Nevermind broke, a lot of my friends who I was working with on the label, a lot of the bands in this book, they left the label so I found it harder to get as excited about the newer bands we were signing because one of the reasons I started Sub Pop was to work with these specific artists – TAD and Mudhoney and Nirvana and so forth – and when I was no longer working with them, I wasn’t quite as passionate about the music. So I’d say that’s part of it. And I felt that the culture kind of changed and as Sub Pop grew, as businesses grow they tend to get a little bit more compartmentalized, which is another way of saying they become a little more corporate. So it wasn’t quite my scene. I’d been involved with the music business in one shape or another since 1980, so I was doing it for about sixteen years and I felt like I needed a break. So I left.
Getting back to the book, I wanted to ask you about one of the photographs in particular that really jumped out at me. It’s the one on page 54 of Kurt sitting with his head down. What was really going on in that photograph?
When we arrived in Rome the previous day, Kurt was pretty much suffering from nervous exhaustion. Later that evening, he tried to throw himself off a PA stack after smashing his last guitar. He pretty much had a nervous breakdown on stage, broke up the band and that’s the following morning where he was really kind of beside himself and probably rethinking his whole career. We decided, as outlined in the book, we offered to pull him out of the van for a day and give him a chance to chill out in Rome and kind of recuperate before the huge LameFest showcase in the UK, which was the main intention of the whole tour to begin with. So you see him there the morning after having basically a nervous breakdown on stage.
Did you take that photograph?
I did take that, yeah. That’s a great shot and not too many people bring that up. But I think that’s a really powerful shot. It’s kind of an unusual photo. Most Nirvana books you’ll flip through and it’s basically Kurt singing in front of a microphone. This book has just a completely different energy about it. There are a lot of intimate moments of Kurt before he became famous and with Steve’s shots, you see the epic rock star live images. I appreciate the combination. I put a lot of energy into it.
There’s another feature in the book that a lot of people don’t mention but I think it’s kind of cool. We contacted all the British magazines who were writing about the band while they’re over there and at the end of the book, you get to see what other people are saying about the band. And I just think they give the book a little more depth.
Aren’t you working on another book?
I am working on another book. It’s going to be a collection of all of my writings, record reviews, from the 80’s. I did review thousands of indie records from 1980 to 1988, so this is a compendium of those. I think it’s going to serve as possibly the best index of American indie records from that decade. It’s also going to be augmented with some additional photos and essays and so forth. I’m pretty stoked about it. It’ll come out next September.
And that’s how you’re going to spend this year?
My plans for this year are to (A) take care of my family (B) finish promoting this book and getting my second book out by September. I enjoy DJ’ing as well, I kind of do that on the side. And I’ll continue to see music and enjoy what Seattle has to offer.
Live photos by Steve Double and candid photos of Kurt Cobain by Bruce Pavitt are from Experiencing Nirvana: Grunge In Europe 1989