Mike Gordon Addresses Jamming Style

If you called 212-330-9092 today, aka Mike Gordon’s “hotline” you’ve heard the Phish bassist address an issue many fans have discussed over the course of the group’s recently completed 18-show tour – why doesn’t Phish do extended jams as much these days as they did in the past? Considering that some fans felt Gordon was unhappy with the lack of exploratory improvisation, his answer may come as a surprise…

“Why doesn’t Phish do extended jams anymore? I don’t understand the question because I thought there were a lot of long jams and I was always surprised about how long they were going. And I kept writing in my journal even saying, ‘wow, what’s great about these jams is how long they are.’ Now, of course anyone that wants Phish to be Phish in ’93, Phish in ’94 is just deluded because that year is gone forever in the history of mankind at least until we loop around time again [unintelligible]. Maybe it’s because now in the jamming, the chord progressions stay similar rather than veering off and I think that’s a good thing. I think it makes the jam get deeper.”

[Mike Gordon Hotline]

There’s always been this great divide between what artists think about their own music and what fans think about an artist’s music. Gordon’s comments illustrate that divide. While some fans (myself included at times) are mostly looking for jams that veer off the structure of the song, aka Type II Jams,  in listening back to the Merriweather shows I was stuck by just how good the jams that didn’t lose the structure of the song were in songs such as Bathtub Gin, Crosseyed & Painless and On Your Way Down.

Cactus also answered another fan’s query about intoxication…

Another question was about intoxication, drinking and having beers before playing and we don’t drink beer or alcohol or pot or anything like that in Phish now. We play sober. But I think that the places that we’re going are actually adventerous in terms of what happens with my conciousness as much as it would’ve been with intoxication.

Here’s the whole message:

[audio:https://glidemag.wpengine.com/hiddentrack/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Memo.m4a]

[Audio thanks to DaveAHZ via Eric Wyman]

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29 Responses

  1. I would ask, are structured jams or jams where “chord progressions stay similar” really truly jams?

    1. Good point…any band can do that…U2 can do that…jamming and improvisation are different entities

  2. I think phish jams sound better and tighter than ever. It’s not the size of the boat, but rather the motion of the ocean. The 5 southern shows i just caught had many many killer jams.

  3. I agree completely Mike. I have loved all of the jams recently, and don’t see why anyone would think they’re not jamming unless they’re angry old people who wish they were still young and on 90s phish tour. Grow up and learn to listen

  4. I also think that they tend to go for the peak sooner these days rather than meandering about and letting it surface – more focused as others have said. There’s a lot you can do in ten to twelve minutes if you’ve got goals in mind.
    Also jams in 93 weren’t that long. 98 thru 2.0 had long jams.

  5. As a youngster I never had a chance to see the more adventurous phish of the early nineties. But hearing tapes and listening to shows from that era is what got me hooked (no pun intended). When I listen to anything from August 93 or June 1994, I get goosebumps. Sure some of the jams are less structured, but Cactus is definitely mistaken when he says 3.0 jams go deeper. That doesn’t mean I don’t like what they did in June because it was the best 3.0 yet. The amount of listening involved has increased tremendously and the whale call is gone. But the jams are not nearly as involved and “deep” as they used to be.

  6. This doesn’t address the big (red) issue of why they bail on these “jams” so frequently. (Some of you have dubbed it “pulling the ripchord”.) I’m fine with jams when “chord progressions stay similar”, but not when you bail on them so fast it’s like someone pulled the needle off the record.

  7. Gordon for President!!! What they do in 5-10 minutes now is a whole hell of a lot more than what they did in that period of time during 2.0 The band no longer uses jamming as a crutch to escape the technical sections of their songs because they all actually know the songs!!

    I like the feeling of spontenaity the band is truly giving their catalogue now. You never know where a Type 2 could drop. Its all about living in the moment, and I love it.

  8. I’m so glad that Mike took the time to address this question, because I know that it has been on a *lot* of people’s minds, my own included. At the same time, Mike’s answer seems to raise as many questions as it addresses. If Mike really believes that Phish’s jams in 2011 are both “long” and “deep,” it suggests that his definition of length and depth are different than those of many fans who miss the long/deep jams of years gone by. Of course, length and depth are relative terms (how long *is* a piece of string, after all?) but measured just by clock time, the jams are very short compared to 1997-2000 or 2003-2004. Remember the slow, looping intro to Ghost starting in 98, or the patient build in Piper? Remember when 2001 lasted more than two thousand and one seconds? Remember Tubes and Halleys could turn into open-ended funk-fests? Those days and those sorts of jams may be gone forever, but I don’t see how the “jams” that have replaced them can, with a few exceptions, be considered “long.” The same goes for “deep.” For me, depth is what comes out of exploration and unpredictability: what Page called the ten minutes of transcendent music that you might only get to after twenty minutes of initial playing. Whether or not you like Phish’s current “jamming” style, I’d hardly call it long or deep. On the contrary, it seems to be concise and unadventurous. So, I’d like to propose a new jamming category: Type 4 jamming, which I define as a jam that seems long and deep to the band but short and non-exploratory to the audience. Type 4 jams can be awesome, but I don’t think anyone could confuse them with what is sometimes called Type 2. Lastly, I boggled that Mike would, even for the sake of polemic, think anyone is calling for 93 or 94 Phish, great though those years are. What most people seem to want, to the extent that they want anything they aren’t already getting, seems to be the extended and fearless exploration of 97-98. I love Phish, and I’m happy that they are playing anything at all, but when I listen to Mike’s comments, I have this Twilight Zone feeling that we aren’t hearing the same music, sharing the same groove, or using the same language . . .

  9. “Remember when 2001 lasted more than two thousand and one seconds?”

    Hells yes, to me it’s not 2001 if it’s not at least 33 and a half minutes long.

  10. Many times when I think a jam is going somewhere or has just gotten somewhere different and Trey ripcords it to the next song, I think some jams need a little more time. I don’t want 93-94 phish, I will be happy with jams that we got towards the 2nd leg of summer last year, fall, and especially the NYE run. Trey even tried to play over Page’s solo in Suzy at Alpharetta2. Trey is playing really well, but doesn’t seem to be giving things any time to develop.

  11. Anyone who takes Mike’s hotline seriously is an idiot. When will everyone realize he’s fucking with you?

  12. “Hells yes, to me it’s not 2001 if it’s not at least 33 and a half minutes long.”

    Touche! I knew I was setting myself up for that one. But my point still stands. Relative to the duration of Phish jams from years past, it strains the definition of “long” to call almost anything from 3.0, a handful of tunes excepted, “long.” I’m not criticizing Phish’s jamming style, just puzzling over how Mike could consider the current jams long . . .

  13. I don’t agree that an 8-12 minute jam is “deeper”, but I appreciate their focus. What bothers me is when Trey pulls the ripcord on an unfolding improv. Case in point, “Tweezer” from Alpharetta2. We waited through a lightning & hail storm and everyone was expecting them to throw us a bone. About the 9:30 mark, Trey played a dark James Bond type thing and Page started layering on the synths. Just when it started to get juicy, Trey yanked the rug out. Maybe aborted jams was Trey’s ‘theme’ for the leg. I’m not one of the longer-is-better fans, but I’d prefer if they let jams develop organically. He’s the kid crimping the hose, instead of letting the music flow through naturally.

  14. Ok here are my thoughts…

    I am enjoying Phish 2010 & 2011 very much. I like that they are openning there song book and playing almost everything (sans story songs except the last night). They are playing at a high level, and look to be having fun doing it. That to me is the most important thing. Hell they seem to be listening to each other more than say anything post 99 to me.

    I understand the feeling that “where have the four song sets gone” sort of feeling. I think if you really go back and study your Phish history, you see when the band really started playing 30+ minute songs is when they ran out of gas in 2003-2004. Yes in other years they played the long jam every once and awhile, but it wasn’t until they used the long drawn out jam to get them through a show.

    Now the get to the point, hit a certain feeling and move on the the next awesome tune. Do I feel Trey pulls the cord too soon, sometimes but come on he’s flying the plane with the other guys were just along for the ride.

    What we have to remember is they (Phish) are not young guys anymore. As long as they are happy, and continue to play that’s all I care about. I used to get hung up on setlist and other stuff, but you know life was kinda dark without my favorite band. I’m gonna enjoy every second and not bitch about a 9 minute 2001 versus a 30+ one.
    Also listen to the bomb factory show, really is that better than what we are getting now? Its an opinnion and we all have them.

  15. Yeah, Bomb Factory is the key example I’m always thinking of in this type of conversation. Segues yes, but not long jams. It’s actually much closer to what goes on nowadays, and for us old folks, the songs were what we loved, and the relationship between songs, the juxtaposition of this with that, is what made up the emotional rollercoaster of a set and a show, not free form jamming. I’m a huge fan of that too (I listen to the headphone jam all the time), but to my ears and dancing feet, 3.0 is a wonderful balance of the two – some great improv a few times per night, and great songs the rest of the time. Nskillet is right: those huge jams were an escape from the technical side of the material. They could lead to utter bliss, true, but back at its roots, the band was about tight playing, and we’re in that zone again.

  16. @type 4 jamming… I couldn’t put it any better than you. **Everyone, please reread his post ;)That Page “quote” is one I cite often when having this discussion.
    As for the band /audience dynamic- They are sober and for the most part the crowd is not- Type 4 sums it up well- So true to what I feel—
    “I’m happy that they are playing anything at all, but when I listen to Mike’s comments, I have this Twilight Zone feeling that we aren’t hearing the same music, sharing the same groove, or using the same language . . .”
    signed- a 24 year fan.

  17. Sure, I “…remember the slow, looping intro to Ghost starting in 98, or the patient build in Piper…(or) when 2001 lasted more than two thousand and one seconds…(and) Tubes and Halley’s could turn into open-ended funk-fests” and I’d like to see that come back occasionally, but I also really like what they are doing now, though, I’m not sure I agree with Mike that it’s deeper. The only thing I’d like to see NOT happen is “pulling the plug” that Trey keeps doing, but really, that’s it.

    At the end of the day…..

    “As long as they are happy, and continue to play that’s all I care about. I used to get hung up on setlist and other stuff, but you know life was kinda dark without my favorite band. I’m gonna enjoy every second….”

    Couldn’t have said it better myself! 🙂

  18. Dude. Phish phuckin rocks. Then and now. Quit bitching. They are on tour!!!! Get out and go see them! Hey if you don’t like it…you can just pop in your old cassettes. Have fun with that…I’ll be on lot.

  19. Dan’s post is right on the money.93-94 phish (and earlier) did not center around the extended jams but was more about tight high energy playing and goofball attitude. There was an interview with mike not long after the 09 Hampton shows where he mentioned that Trey was listening to a lot of 93 shows. Clearly the band’s goal right now is to find a sweet spot between precise high energy execution of the early 90’s and extended spacey “psychedelic” jams of 96-97 and later.

  20. Mike, seriously, ignore PT and the haters.. Just keep playing together.. Many of us are just happy to see you dudes playing again..

    Signed,
    A longtime fan

    P.S. The music is great

  21. I think whatever Mike thinks is all that matters, you know, since he’s the one playing and all! I understand his shock at the presumption, as I was present for that 58 minute, 3 song jamageddon at Detroit. As for Phish right now? Couldn’t be better. I’ll take this tight, dense jamming over the slop psychedelia of 03-04 any day. This is the best they’ve sounded in YEARS, and they are clearly enjoying themselves. And also, being around for the 98-2000 years when they were all blasted for every show, it’s refreshing to see them so clear minded and able to concentrate. It produces more bust outs.

  22. Well been seeing them since 96 and the Gin at Alpharetta was the best Gin I have ever heard in my life. That was also the consensus of MANY about the legendary Phish song. I hope Mike is reading this cause I got my mind FUCKED in the 4 Southern shows. Jams were going for 12, 13, 15 minutes and the word hear is Tight! Another that comes to mind is Cooking!! Would I like more extended jams? Would b nice, but, the boys are sounding the best they have since They’ve been back, so just let these musicians do their thing and melt faces like They do so well.

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